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My VblAuf unserer Homepage setzen wir Cookies ein, die https://ccmjm.co/us-online-casino/bingre-optionen-demo-konto.php den Betrieb der Seite erforderlich sind. Quelle: Thema WhatsApp, www. Rentenantrag - LA. Drucken Zum Seitenanfang. Sofern Sie keinen unserer elektronischen Übermittlungsdienste z. Betriebsrentenrechner VBLklassik. VBLextra enables you to collect more pension points towards your retirement by taking out voluntary insurance. It enhances the coverage provided by VBLklassik,. 3 What your choice for VBLextra means. 4 Decision-making aid for employees in the western Länder of Germany. 5 Changes in your employment contract. Furthermore, your pension payments are indexed (enhanced) every year. The VBL provides insured employees with advice on every aspect of retirement. Quellen: Me, Myself and My Killfie: Characterizing and Preventing Selfie Deaths, Cornell University, , 1 „Das ‚Selfie' in Zahlen.“, ccmjm.co Registrierung für Arbeitgeber. Vielen Dank für Ihr Interesse an Meine VBL für Arbeitgeber. Bitte füllen Sie das Registrierungsformular vollständig aus. 1. NewsBot Mar 5 AM. Jim Zajac on November 26, at My Vbl. I think Ben twisted your statement around …. Insulating material will be fill. And in this case it was completely negated source the high ambient visit web page — since it was very humid My Vbl the bivy, there was no where for the moisture inside the bivy from perspiration to go, go here it stayed trapped. Also, based on your findings, if I had slept in a VBL that weekend, I assume the down bag or bivy inside would have been dry, correct? For my upcoming trip, I will be sleeping in a two person, 4 season tent well ventilated, but heavy nonetheless. Mike Der Deutsche Genius on November 18, at pm.
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For example, my sleeping bag a top-of-the-line model rated to -5 F with premium fill down would become more damp—and less lofty—with each long night curled up in it.
My running shoes and Forty Below Light Energy overboots were frozen stiff each morning due to trapped foot-sweat from the days before. And sometimes I would perspire so much at night—without noticing it—that my clothes would steam when I emerged from my sleeping bag in the morning.
If not for being invited inside times a week by generous locals and having the opportunity to dry my things, I definitely would have shivered through more nights than I actually did.
The complete compromising of some of my most critical equipment was unstoppable with the system that I had.
Fast forward two years to January , when I decided to revisit northern Minnesota in the depth of winter, but this time better equipped.
That meant bringing a VBL jacket, pants, socks, gloves, and balaclava. I intended to complete the entire trip without a night indoors, or at least feel that I was capable of doing so.
As it happened, I spent one night inside, about 5 days into the trip, with one of my favorite trail stewards, Ken Oelkers of Silver Bay.
After the trip I made a few small adjustments to my winter clothing and sleep system, but generally these systems were spot-on—they led to a tremendous improvement over my Sea-to-Sea experience.
They are definitely most critical on multi-day trips in frigid conditions, but they are valuable for both shorter and warmer trips too.
The principal effect of a VBL is stopping the transmission of insensible and sensible perspiration, i. Without a VBL, perspiration would move away from your body and through outer layers if applicable , and then hopefully evaporate into the atmosphere.
This entrapment of moisture has three benefits:. First, perspiration will not reach outer layers like a windshirt, insulated parka, or sleeping bag.
This is hugely important because in cold conditions your perspiration will often stay in these layers: the dew point is somewhere between your body and the outside atmosphere, and your perspiration will condense from water vapor into actual water, thus wetting the layers.
This will cause down and synthetic insulations to ultimately collapse. And it will cause unwanted evaporative heat loss with other fibers like polyester, nylon, and wool.
Second, the wearer is always keenly aware of their rate of perspiration, and they are better able to thermoregulate properly as a result.
Without a VBL, you might begin to overheat and sweat profusely without fully realizing it. This will soak layers and cause dehydration, which will lead to poorer circulation and lower respiratory efficiency; you may also waste more time and fuel melting snow to get water.
With a VBL, however, this scenario is far less likely to happen: you will notice the rainforest-like humidity level in the microclimate—or, if you really overdo it, the sweat dripping down your back—and you will react by removing layers or increasing ventilation.
Finally, evaporative heat loss is minimized. All forms of heat loss should be carefully managed in cold conditions, and a VBL is an effective way in which to manage evaporative heat loss.
The other types of heat loss are conduction, convective, and radiation. To illustrate this point, imagine how it feels to work up a sweat while snowshoeing up a mountain and then resting for a few minutes at the cold, windswept summit.
This would include ambient air temperature, wind, sun exposure, precipitation, humidity, and ground cover. I find that I can begin to wear VBL gloves in temperatures below 40 degrees F, a jacket and socks below 20, and pants below The maximum temperature at which a sleeping bag liner can be used is very dependent on the warmth of the sleeping bag.
A liner will add about degrees of warmth to a bag not including the warmth preserved by preventing loft loss.
Trip length. On a weekend trip, for example, loft loss will not be significant. On a week-long trip or longer , however, the loss of a few degrees of warmth each night—due to perspiration entering the sleeping bag and wetting the insulation—would be much more noticeable and consequential.
For example, towards the end of a full day of alpine skiing, when the sun disappears and the temperatures begin to drop, many skiers feel chilled because their boot liners, gloves, and clothing have become damp with sweat during the day.
By wearing VBL layers skiers could avoid the compromising of their insulation and the sucking of heat away from their bodies by this trapped moisture, allowing them to catch one more lift at 4pm.
Type of insulation. Down is more susceptible to loft-loss than synthetics when exposed to moisture. Synthetics are still vulnerable in the long-term too, but the rate of degradation is less.
Therefore, it is possible that I can stretch an all-synthetic system a few days longer than I could an all-down system.
Ultimately, the all-synthetic system will fail too, but perhaps not before I finish the trip. Effort intensity.
This is fairly easy during steady, low aerobic activities like hiking, snowshoeing, mountaineering, ski touring, snowmobiling, ice fishing, etc.
The task becomes more difficult for activities like alpine skiing and climbing, when periods of intense exercise are followed by periods of sedation, e.
Personally, I prefer the latter approach, which I believe has a few key benefits. First, the base layer creates a small buffer that minimizes discomfort i.
Finally, the base layer seems to keep my skin dry enough that moisture-related skin issues e. Polyester can be knitted thinner and does not absorb moisture like wool does, which may result in decreased sensitivity.
Personally, I prefer to wear VBL clothing, which has a few advantages. First, I can use a lighter sleeping bag because I can sleep with all of my clothes on—a base layer between my skin and VBL, then all of my other layers outside the VBL.
With a VBL liner I can only sleep in my base layer garments; otherwise all of my layers would get wet. Second, I already have all of my clothes on in the morning when I wake up, which saves time and body warmth.
Even if I brought all of my non-base layer clothes into my sleeping bag but outside of a VBL liner, I will lose a lot of heat when I try to change into them.
And third, I keep all of my clothing dry at night and during the day, except for my base layers, which may become slightly moist with perspiration.
If I were to rely exclusively on a VBL bag liner, perspiration would enter and become trapped in my insulated jacket and pants while I wear them during rest stops or in camp.
A complete suit would include socks, pants, jacket, gloves, and a hat or balaclava. The ideal VBL fabric would be a non-slip, 1-layer, 4-way-stretch ultralight fabric with a good hand.
To my knowledge this fabric does not exist. Until it does, we have sub-optimal options. Silicone-impregnated nylon and reflective nylon e.
Mylar is slippery, crinkly, and noisy. This fabric is heavy, and it offers less adjustability than a 3-piece system consisting of a thin base layer, VBL shirt, and an outer layer like a windshirt or ultralight insulated parka.
Without stretch, these fabrics are impractical for pants because they are so constricting. The only option is to make baggy pants, which are not conducive to creating a small microclimate next to the skin.
Regulating can be done quickly and efficiently via features like zippers e. During periods of rapid warming or cooling, like during or just after a rest stop, these micro adjustments may be inadequate and entire layers may have to be added or removed.
Vapor barrier liners can be a pivotal and critical addition to wintertime and shoulder-season clothing and equipment systems, especially for those who are outdoors for long periods of time in frigid conditions.
My first winter experience was during my 7,mile Sea-to-Sea hike, during which I snowshoed 1, miles through Michigan, Wisconsin, and northern Minnesota pictured in the first three months of It became immediately obvious that my sleeping and clothing system, which was simply a warmer version of a conventional lightweight setup, failed to adequately manage perspiration and loft-loss.
I returned to Minnesota in January in order to perfect my winter system, which included a complete VBL suit: jacket, pants, socks, gloves, and balaclava.
The system was an enormous improvement over the Sea-to-Sea experience — the VBL system eliminated loft-loss, improved thermoregulation, and minimized evaporative heat loss.
Notice the accessory carabiner on my shoulder strap, which is one of the ways I make fast and efficient adjustments to my layering system.
After hiking for several hours, Sam removed his waterproof-breathable jacket to discover a layer of frost inside it, due to his perspiration turning from vapor into water as it reached the dew point, which was inside his clothing system.
If he had been out for more than a night, the moisture inside of his system would have caused his insulated jacket to fail.
Without a VBL, it is necessary to dry clothing and equipment frequently. This is difficult in cold conditions, but possible.
Even though I had VBL, I took advantage of a relatively warm and sunny day to dry two sleeping bags and a bivy sack, which had become slightly damp due to snow-covered ground and frozen moisture from breathing.
VBL are most critical on long-term trips in frigid conditions. But I have also found them useful during the shoulder seasons and done-in-a-day winter efforts.
My favorite example of the latter is when I used them while removing ice dams off rooftops in Frisco, CO — the VBL helped to minimize evaporative heat loss and kept my insulation dry, which prevented me from getting chilled by the end of the day.
Steady, low-aerobic activities like hiking, snowshoeing, mountaineering, and ski touring are most conducive to the use of VBL because your heat output is consistent and can be managed easily.
Stop-and-go activities like climbing and backcountry alpine skiing are challenging for VBL use because your heat output is more erratic.
I say to each his own. However, I only use breathable water proof or water resistant laminate fabrics with varying thickness levels of polyester fleece and taped or non taped seams.
I personally disagree with the use of VBLs. The micro-environment creates a pseudo 2nd skin that you can never remove without going indoors think literal sweatsuit.
Moist micro-environments create fungus issues. Mold likes to grow in cool, damp places. Fungus breeds a whole derivative set of issues for the solo trip enthusiast.
Hello VBL 2nd skin void. Different gloves and mitts for different times during the day. This can be more difficult to manage on long treks.
Just my opinion. Again, to each his own…. The VBL layers are a cornerstone for this system. What fabric did you use to make your own VBL? What sort of patterns did you use for the clothing?
My homemade VBL pants are made from sil-nylon. There is some videos and reviews on youtube of this ultra-light bivvy bag, and it just might be what you are looking for to put into pants to create a vapor barrier, since it looks just stretchy enough that it might work… Just a thought… Stay safe and enjoy the great outdoors… God bless.
Perhaps you could look into PVC for pants material. I have a hoodie made out of it that I used as a raincoat for eight years with proper care before it started to wear out, and I can tell you that thing did not breath at all.
Have you considered using pleats and gussets to achieve freedom of motion in slim-cut pants? Gussets require extra seam length, which may not be desirable for vapor-tightness, but pleats seem like all win.
Just to potentially inspire some options: materials such as rubber, urethane, latex, and silicone can be air-tight and flexible.
Very thin urethane films are amazingly resilient and puncture resistant, too. Perhaps a good VBL could be made with these flexible materials in some areas and traditional shelter fabrics in others?
Andrew, First, thanks for your time researching, experimenting, and publishing your findings.
I am new to hiking, two years, and section hiking the AT. I seem to be gravitating to off-season hiking avoiding the crowds.
The bag was wet on the outside, my base layer was damp on my skin and inside of the bivy was slippery wet. Luckily, I was near a town and was able to make it to a laundromat and dry everything that morning.
Last year, I hiked Vermont for a week in late August under wet conditions, feet were wet the whole time but was wearing wool socks and I never felt uncomfortable.
Getting to the question now, : , it seems that wearing a thin wool base layer next to the skin would be more comfortable than synthetic next to the skin.
Also, based on your findings, if I had slept in a VBL that weekend, I assume the down bag or bivy inside would have been dry, correct?
Thanks for your response and time Andrew. I would not recommend this system in general, regardless of the conditions.
And for the conditions you experienced, this is a particularly bad setup. And in this case it was completely negated by the high ambient humidity — since it was very humid outside the bivy, there was no where for the moisture inside the bivy from perspiration to go, so it stayed trapped within.
For example, if it was 35 degrees outside your bivy and 80 degrees inside your sleeping bag, and if the dew point was 45 degrees, then the transition point between water vapor and water liquid would be somewhere inside your system.
In this case, it was getting wet from both. And wet down does not insulate very well. Having a merino wool base layer would have helped some in keeping you warm, but I think the conditions degraded your system so severely that you probably still would have been very cold and would have needed to head into town the following day.
If you had a VBL bag liner or clothing, your sleeping bag would not have become wet from perspiration, which would have improved your situation.
But the down still would have absorbed ambient humidity, causing loss of warmth. This system would not be immune from moisture problems but would be much more resistant to them.
This is a fairly standard go-to setup for me when hiking in the cold and wet conditions you have described.
I started using Stephenson Warmlite gear in about For me, vapor barrier is most useful for sleep when you are generating the least body heat and are protecting the most important insulation, your down sleeping bag.
So I carry light clothing but risk coming up to meet a snowstorm. I wear sandals but carry plastic bags and heavy socks just in case, to avoid frostbite in the worst case scenario.
Seems like a good system. Sleeping with down has some compromises, and it sounds like the VBLs solve these. They use shelled micro pile to create that same kind of microclimate.
Windproof outer, and interior with minimum contact. Basically creates a wetsuit affect. I have a tent made with it, and I like it a lot.
A windshell made with this would weigh very little, but be seriously useful. I am a gear nut only to the extent that being one keeps me safer and more comfortable during my trips.
Geeking over gear in the interest of gear has never done much for me. Many people are not that aware of their thermal regulating mechanisms.
Use of a vapor barrier can increase that awareness and the experience gained and increased skill will help users stay safer and more comfortable.
I am reminded of the plastic bags we put inside our snow boots as children. Being poor I used small plastic bags for my socks and larger plastic bags for my sleeping bags.
It was warm during the day, so I only used the VBL at night, except for the socks. I wore a thin layer of polypro this was 25 years ago and put the plastic bag with holes for my head and arms on.
If I thought I would be cold I would add another layer of fleece. Around my ankles I would position the other plastic bag.
As I cooled off I would pull up the bag. It is also very light and very cheap. Our guide advised us to remove all layers of clothes once a day, so in the morning I would take the VBL off and change the underlayer.
It is definitely the cheapest and lightest warmth you can get. On another topic, the night I ate a cube of butter was the warmest and most comfortable night I have snow camped!
My first experiences with the NTS shirt was I was getting very cold on my front, where the shirt was touching my skin. SoI used a fancy patigucci polypro with which I got too warm read sweat.
The mesh helps establish a layer of dead air space between myself and the VBL without any conductive heat loss.
It worked so well I paid nearly three times as much for a Brynje shirt from Norway. Even more outstanding. I believe the mesh is the missing element in VBL systems.
One problem to expect, however: mesh is not worthy as a standalone base layer, since it does not offer protection against UV or wind.
So if you expect that sometimes during your outing you may need to strip down to your base layer due to relatively warm temperatures, mesh may not be a good choice — more of a concern on longer trips than short ones.
I am also a winter cyclist and commuter. I live in Minnesota, so similar temps of 20F to F. I would be very interested in hearing your specific experiences in this application.
My main concern would be sweat regulation. I am also interested in using it for more athletic, fat tire trail riding.
Finally, do you ever use the NTS shirt causally? For instance, as an alternative for a mid-weight insulation layer?
It seems the quantities of moisture must be fairly large. Is the inner liner layer able to handle it all or will I end up will pools of sweat on my socks?
The quantity of moisture is large over the long-term. Think about how much you perspire over the course of a week — now imagine if your clothes trapped all of that moisture.
Some of the moisture will collect in your base layers, which you can dry through ventilation, sunshine, or a quick fire.
Other moisture may freeze to the inside of your VBL, and it can be simply dusted off. If moisture that freezes in a baselayer can be dried through ventilation or sunshine, then why is it that moisture frozen in a insulating layer worn without a VBL system cannot also be dried through ventilation or sunshine?
Insulated layers are thicker and more removed from body heat, this absorbing mote moisture and lacking an additional drying factor. Base layers are designed to wick and dry quickly.
Wet down is not designed to dry quickly — just the opposite. It takes forever to dry wet down. Yes, wet down takes forever to dry.
But without a VBL the down is just likely to get damp. Depending on daylight temperatures and solar strength, you may or may not be able to dry the insulation.
Ditto for arm vents. And a two-way zipper. There are many situations where you want some of the warmth and wind protection of a shell, but not all of it.
I sleep much more comfortably in breathable nylon shelled bags. It also seems that one would need to carry a warmer and heavier waterproof down quilt in the first place being reduced to wearing only a thin base layer under the quilt.
I much prefer VBL clothing over a sleeping bag liner: I can wear all my clothes to bed, not just a base layer, and I get out of my bag in the morning with all my warm clothes on, instead of having to put on cold clothes that sat outside my bag all night.
Sleeping bags with marginally breathable shells e. The former will cause a lot of moisture to get trapped inside the bag, thus wetting the insulation.
The latter will make it very difficult to get moisture out if it ever manages to get in e. This would be more of a concern in wet places.
Another problem with this construction is that again you can only wear a base layer to bed. I spent 8 days in Yosemite recently with a down bag camping in the same spot each night, in degree weather, with snow.
My down did get compromised somewhat where the footbox accidentally touched the tent wall, and around areas where I was breathing.
There was some loft lost too. I was somewhat concerned that compressing the bag to move to new location might clump the down in future long winter trips.
I guess I never quite understood why that would be the case, is that adage suggesting that if one were to sleep in a bag with only baselayers on, that the temperature in the bag would be higher than if a person was wearing synthetic layers?
Is there another mechanism at play here, and does the use of a VBL fall into that scenario too? You must have read some incorrect information about synthetic versus down insulation with respect to dew points.
The mechanics are the same for both types of insulations:. Your core temperature should be about The temperature of your skin is probably a little colder, say By the time you move through your base layer and puffy jacket, the temperature is about The dew point was probably between 60 and 10 degrees; the precise temperature is a function of ambient humidity — if the air is almost completely saturated with moisture already, the dew point will be higher.
To better understand dew point and humidity, visit Wikipedia. As you sleep you perspire, insensibly. As this moisture moves away from your body towards the drier ambient air, it hits the dew point, converts from vapor into liquid, and wets your insulation.
I have an ultralight REI 0 degree fill down bag that has served me very well over the years. Ive gone winter camping with it many times in the Adirondack mountains of NY but nothing longer than a few days.
I see you prefer VBL clothing over a bag liner…is there a particular setup you recommend that might work best given my scenario?
Thanks for the advice. I had been reading some conflicting posts on whiteblaze, good to have an expert clear things up. Is this true? What techniques or gear have you found work best in keeping healthy feet?
VBL socks can help prevent shoes from getting wet due to perspiration. This becomes a problem on cold mornings because your footwear will freeze.
Not the end of the world, but highly uncomfortable. That clip is generally achievable only by experienced backpackers and endurance athletes who have figured out the gear and skills they need to move fast and efficiently.
Is there a particular book on long-distance foot care you might recommend? I think I should have been a little more specific with my question, although you answered it for the most part.
Did you find the terrain on the AT in the mid-Atlantic region demanding enough to require boots, or will my Salomon trail runners suffice?
On my last snowshoeing trip, I solved my frozen boots in the morning problem at temperatures around 20 degrees. I simply put some cheap pocket warmers inside my socks, stuffed them in the toes of my boots, then stuffed my mittens inside.
It is interesting to read the critics of the vapor barrier approach who have never actually experienced the remarkable performance at sub zero temperatures.
In all it offers the benefit of preserving the insulating capacity of down by keeping it dry, and reducing the amount of insulation needed overall by preventing the cooling effect of insensible perspiration.
Using a light layer of synthetic long underwear, then a light rain suit, followed by heavy fleece my summer weight down bad provided more than enough insulation to keep toasty warm at zero degrees.
An impressive performance. For those people with cold extremities, feet and hands, even something as simple as a bread bag over a liner sock and then a heavier insulating sock will make your feet feel like they are being warmed by a wood stove.
For your hands plastic disposable gloves will work, or alternatively exam gloves from the pharmacy will do the trick.
There is no need to buy expensive gear to outfit yourself. In fact if you can find someone handy with a sewing machine a few yards of the lightest silnylon will serve to fabricate a rudimentary pair of pants and tunic top.
In the final analysis that setup will weigh far less than a winter weight down bag and all the accumulated moisture of days out in the cold.
This season I spent a lot of time designing and testing […]. Great article and fabulous info! Thanks so much for getting it out there.
I have been pushing into the winter camping more and more and have found incredible benefit to using a VBL. I have tested it out in a 32 degree WM Summerlite bag in -9 degree weather… Here is the link to my videos if you care to take a look.
My sleep system weighs in at less than 3 lbs and I have slept under the stars in below zero weather with no problems.
All thanks to a VBL!!! Sorry for all of the links, just super excited to share about a product that perfoms when applied correctly!
Thanks again for all that you do! Thank you very much for an informative article. I could find no relevant information on VBL usage anywhere, so truly appreciate you sharing your knowledge in this area with the rest of the world.
I am currently doing a bit of research on how to stay warm at night for an upcoming trip to Nepal and I have found your posting to be very helpful.
What a tremendous article. Were the heck were you 40 years ago when I lived in Michigan, had no understanding of any of these concepts and absolutely no money to test things besides garbage bags and cheap plastic K-mart lose-weight work-out suits?
So poor that cotton long underwear Collon long underwear under a plastic suit was nearly an actual killer and cotton insulated, used bedrolls or Military surplus was all I could afford.
My only concern is damp feet 24 hrs a day for the longer legs weeks. So long as you are not a prolific sweater, and so long as you take steps to avoid excessive perspiration, you should be fine, especially if you take every opportunity to dry out your next-to-skin layers, like when you build a fire, when you get an abnormally sunny and warm day, or find a shelter to get inside out of the cold.
For the damp feet issue try using an actual paste antiperspirant for several days prior to your outing. You can do the same for your hands.
As for your torso and legs meticulous exertion control and venting are necessary. One benefit of the vapor barrier is early detection of overheating for the level of exertion and insulating layers being worn.
Fortunately that moisture never reaches your insulating layers. I have a 5 degree fill down Marmot bag that I have taken down to the 5 degree rating wearing only midweight synthetic long underwear and was quite comfortable.
Based on your article it appears that a VBL could be applicable to my trip as the temps will be cold with very low humidty and dew point.
Would the VBL in the link below work? For how many nights will you be out there? If just one or two, I would not bother with VBL clothing or a sleeping bag liner, as the moisture accumulation will be minimal over that time period.
Plus, if you are in a big group shelter it may be warm enough in there to dry out your stuff. I would still consider VBL mitts — sweat-soaked mitts get really cold by the end of the day.
We will be out there for 2 nights, 3 at the most but I will be in a 2 man mountaineering tent. On my last winter climbing trip I noticed that ice had formed inside my sleeping bag and was freezing even though the outside temp was only 10 degrees and I was in a zero degree bag.
I guess this is my main thought behind going with a VBL as that was a truly miserable night. Also, I will definitely check out the VBL mitt.
Thank you for this article. I did want to point out one issue with your discussion of dew point and condensation.
Dew point is a function of two variables: the actual temperature, and the relative humidity. Because the temperature across your sleeping system is not constant, but rather a gradient, the dew point will likewise be a gradient, and whether or not condensation will take place inside your bag will depend both on that gradient and on the amount of moisture entering the system i.
In that regard, your point about wearing extra insulation layers under your sleeping bag is well taken: that extra layer creates an additional temperature gradient between you and the insulation in the bag, making condensation inside the bag or even in your layers more likely.
Our bodies are designed to shed a certain amount of moisture, even when sleeping and not overheating. I know this article is old but the information is timeless — hoping you may still reply….
In the article you said you prefer a polyester-based base layer because it absorbs less moisture. Can you help clarify? Also, reading between the lines it seems that on a multi-day cold-weather excursion, you may never take the VBL off?
Is that correct? Do you ever air out your base layer? How long can you go without getting trench foot? Re wool versus synthetic. A synthetic base layer will dry faster; a merino layer will smell less.
Re multi-day use. Your VBL top and bottom should have vents e. For me at least, it worked fine to remove them at the end of the day when I arrived at camp.
My liner sock usually would be damp, but it would dry out overnight. Thanks for the quick reply.
Otherwise — worst case — I suppose changing out and carrying a few pairs of frozen liners is better than having wet feet for multiple days and nights.
That is why you wear it next to the skin or a very light liner. Truth is for what we are talking about it's less important. Relatively short uses starting and ending at a warm home is not as crucial to a multi day or say hour excursion in the very cold.
They really shine when ski touring, mountaineering etc. If you are using VBL's just for a winter bike ride to stay warm it doesn't matter if they are your inner or outer layer that much.
Do what works for you and your footwear. Here is a good article I found. Thanks for all the great info. Like others, I too have winter camped and experienced dampness on my down sleeping bag and wondered why it was soaked in the morning.
For my upcoming trip, I will be sleeping in a two person, 4 season tent well ventilated, but heavy nonetheless. Previously when I winter camped with my Mtn Hardwear down bag, the moisture accumulated on the outside of the bag, not the inside.
Temperatures will likely be hovering around zero F, maybe lower. Humidity will be mild. If I just use one, should it be used inside or outside my down bag?
I recommend VBL clothing worn outside of your base layers but inside of everything else, so that you can wear all of your clothing to bed.
If you use a VBL bag liner, however, you can only sleep in your base layers, and at best you can keep your clothing inside your bag but outside of the VBL.
Hi everyone, I have just come across this extremely interesting article and discussion … I am completely new to the concept of VBL and as such I would like to say thank you for this great article which has definitely helped me understand better the principles of VBL.
I also understand the need to manage the whole body temperature principle, and that one needs to learn to adapt and regulate the body temperature accordingly.
I get that VBL is best suited for very cold environemnts and situation, but take the Ski example. This is all really fascinating though, I know that I will try and learn properly about VBL so I can put it to test as soon as possible….
Thanks in advance for your help! For instance, if I notice that my hands are overheating in my VBL gloves, I remove the gloves and clip them onto my shoulder strap, and ski instead with just my liner gloves, which will have collected a little bit of moisture.
But within a few minutes, this moisture has evaporated and I can put my hands back into my gloves.
Instead, wear a lightweight layer between your skin and the VBL. This will add comfort without reducing your ability to sense excessive buildup of perspiration.
Thanks a lot for your reply, and thanks again for sharing your knowledge! Thank you for your writings on VBL. I think I first came across a basic statement of the concept in a magazine over 40 years ago.
I am surprised that it has not yet become mainstream in the recreational equipment industry. Instead, all these decades later, you are a pioneer.
Thank you for that. I am remembering, from what I read over 40 years ago, a claim that there is a bodily feedback mechanism that reduces perspiration output even of insensible perspiration when high humidity is sensed on the skin.
That is in addition to the conscious adjustment of clothing and the regulation of effort which you describe as methods to control sweating.
If such a mechanism exists, then VBL would conserve water and electrolytes, as well as body heat. Obviously from what you report, under heavy workload this putative feedback mechanism is not enough on its own to control sweating sufficiently.
Perhaps, though, such a mechanism could make a significant difference during low effort times such as sleeping.
Markum; you bring up a very interesting topic to me at least. Some people throw up their hands in horror at the mention of it, but others, especially in very cold climes seem to swear by it.
This field is intensely studied by anesthesiologists. To the best of my knowledge, I agree, there is no such physiological mechanism.
After all, humans sweat when overheating whether they are in the desert — where doing so is productive — or in a midsummer swamp, where sweating cannot facilitate evaporative heat loss.
Air has a limited capacity to contain gaseous water. In other words, the concept of a maximum humidity is real and at such a point, it is thermodynamically unfavorable for water to leave the surface of a droplet to behave as a gas.
And energetically unfavorable events do not, on their own, occur in this universe. The bottom of the bag will be unlined. I am looking at a 30D silnylon material due to its waterproof nature.
An air or foam half mattress will provide for insolation for the torso. Insulating material will be fill down. I was thinking about using eVent or HyVent material on both sides.
This should prevent moisture from passing thru the material into the down. It in theory would also allow for any moisture that did reach the down to pass thru the material when I hung it up to air and dry out.
Both are three layer materials which make them slightly heavier oz per square yard. Weight is not the primary concern. In an emergency this setup could be used alone as a bivy or an injured person could be put in the bag and onto a sled for evacuation.
One concern is this may lock in too much vapor. I normally sleep in just a base layer and vent the bag when I get warm. Clothes, and water bottles are kept in the bag to prevent freezing at night.
Leaking water bottle a potential but so far has not occurred. Your understanding of these fabrics is inaccurate. Huh, what? In reality, these fabrics do breathe, albeit not nearly as well as, say, a base layer shirt or the lightweight shell fabrics you see on most sleeping bags today.
So when you perspire at night, this perspiration will pass through the inner fabric, into and hopefully through the insulation, and through the outer fabric, where it will evaporate.
Fabrics that breathe as such, even at a restricted rate, do NOT function as vapor barrier liners. A VBL fabric performs more like the 30D silnylon you are planning to use for a floor — it is waterproof but not breathable.
Personally, I prefer bags that use highly breathable nylon or polyester shell fabrics. When I first started using a VB sleep system several decades ago, it was a coated nylon liner, summer down bag, and a homemade bivvy sack under a flat rectangular tarp.
The combo of VB layer and biv sack keeps the sleeping bag or quilt dry and clean, even if you bump against a frosty tarp.
So, I have been reading that insensible perspiration does not stop with VB use. And I am reading that it can not be regulated, it is a constant.
Then does anything decrease insensible perspiration? For example, body temp? Can it be regulated by body temp? Same if I sit outside on a coolish day: as long as I am not wearing too many- or perhaps any other- layers, I do not accumulate moisture inside the VB.
Same when I sleep outside in winter in my hammock, inside quilts, wearing my VB shirt: though I feel much warmer than without it, unless I add enough layers to actually over heat, I am not aware of sweat.
One exception is my feet. They are usually so warm I feel like they are sweating. As opposed to so many who complain of cold feet while hanging in a hammock.
I normally ignore it and just sleep with overheating feet. But when I take off the VB socks the next morning, though my feet do indeed feel toasty warm to the touch, there is usually no perceptible liquid.
It just feels super humid and everything dries very quickly. Now, I have produced sweat while exercising in VBs.
So, I know what that feels like, actual liquid. Why am I not finding little pools of water even in my VB socks after a nigh of sleeping with the feeling that my feet are overheating and actually sweating?
The provides to an extent a VBL effect, which Skurka has also written about and is worth […]. How about using a space blanket as a liner for sleeping bag?
There is possible to buy it as a sack. It is very light. If needed, using lightweight pack tape, you can built in some cord for tightening around a neck.
We can also make a suit from the space blanket. Just using pack tape. Everything will be light, and cheap. It looks like it will not last for a long time, but maybe enough long.
In such a case, moisture produced by the body would not enter the insulation in the morning, the accumulated inner moisture could be wiped dry by a lightweight towel to then be frozen followed by a defrosting-by-shaking.
At least one side of the bag would need to be breathable, or else the bag would resist lofting after being compressed, or compressing after being lofted because a non-breathable fabric does not allow air to pass through it, so basically air flow would be limited to the seams.
This breathable side could not be on the inside, adjacent to the sleeper, since moisture would accumulate inside the bag against the non-breathable layer.
The breathable layer could go on the outside, and the non-breathable layer adjacent to the sleeper, but the problem here is that the sleeper would not be able to wear any clothing to bed besides a base layer.
Otherwise, perspiration would collect inside their clothing system, e. Given, Im still in round Naive. But sure — nano-technology will probably come along and make the above line of reasoning a completely irrelevant approach before I come anywhere near achieving an ultralow-degrable cold weather sleeping solution.
At least the down i invest in this little project can always be recycled into something actually useable. Unfortunately for Mr.
Here is my problem. My feet are always cold when I ski. I have had three ski boots and at the end of the day my feet are wet or dam. I presume its due to sweat which makes my feet cold.
Which is a better solution to warm my feet. Vapor barrier linings or hotronics foot heaters? How will vapor barrier liners work in a ski boot which is totally enclosed?
Thanks for your help. Why not try out both your suggested solutions VBL and Hotronics and see what works best, if at all, for your feet?
Nothing like field tests to move beyond metaphysical deduction. Lofts well enough and weighed the same in the morning after I spent the night camped out on one of my balconies as it did when I hit the sack 8 hours earlier.
I tried it out on a night I had a flash fever from some flu-ish bug. I chomped down some paracatamol an hour after hitting the sack and sweated off the fever in the bag.
The night temp was approx. Yes, I was damp come morning — but comfy so. Far from proof of concept to be sure, but not too discouraging either.
A week in Svalbard next! Thanks for sharing your knowledge with those of us who are less experienced. I am currently in the planning process of making my own vapour barrier clothing.
Are elastic hems sufficient? Or should I be using a slip lock buckle to obtain a tighter fit? I thought a slip lock buckle or piece of cord might be a good way to go, however, I was concerned that I might reduce my circulation in obtaining and adequate seal.
How essential is this seal? Also, have you made yours so that your pants and top can zip together? Or is this somewhat unnecessary? The suits are made out of a material called Tychem, which is Tyvek treated with some sort of gas-proof coating.
Do you think that would create any problems? They take a bit more time to put on than if you were to just slide into a mummy.
For a cheaper, silnylon DIY mummy liner buy a silnylon tarp e. Pretty simple. Weighs about grams.
Typically, in a frozen environment, rain will not be an issue, but it can rain in your tent… more on that in a bit.
That being said, you will invariably fluctuate between being warm and wet to being cold and dry. You begin your day with a thin layer of polypro or wool between your skin and your VBL.
Throughout your day of exertion, you vent the best you can to keep your under layer comfortable and when you reach your camp, continue venting your VBL while you cook and set up camp.
When you wake up, you will have warm dry longies to change into. When you reach camp, you will have dry longies again.
Now the tent thing. I disagree. The tent is to keep you dry and out of the wind. Even without wet clothes, your tent will become wet inside if you keep it sealed up in an effort to stay warm.
Keep plenty of outside air moving through your tent, and rely on your fluffy dry insulation to keep you warm.
When the desiccant becomes saturated, spread it into a pan and dry it on your stove during your snow melting ritual.
As long as the only thing that ever gets wet is your thin under layer, having a spare and a way to dry the wet ones will carry you for many days or weeks.
Andrew, do you see yourself possibly doing some things differently in retrospect on some trips and in some situations had you greater employed hydrophobic down in a sleep system?
In non-extreme circumstances, hydrophobic down may buy you more time, i. Maybe more on par with synthetic insulations? The exact effect will depend on the down and the conditions.
In conditions where I would consider a VBL, drying is usually not an option. Thanks for the excellent article. As a geezer, nearing 70, my hands and feet are sometimes cold whilst snowshoeing here in Northern Ontario and Quebec.
There is no question about it, using a vapour barrier is great and keeps the feet warm and insulation dry. This is only after 7 hours of show-shoeing.
Have you ever suffered from a similar situation? Any thoughts. The outside of a wool shirt-jacket may be white with frost, but it is drying.
When I was a kid, everyone hung their wash out in winter here. Sure it would come in frozen but it would have much less water content because of sublimation.
Is it from friction or moisture? Good point about the sublimination. You are better off preventing things from getting wet.
Andrew Skurka has a good summary of their use here. However, an independently unfortunate property of cotton is that it loses all insulation when wet.
I was interested in trying to incorporate your idea of a VBL to help extend my gear and reduce my overall pack weight. Many of them come with front zips and some even come with side leg zips.
Thank you in advance. Aside from the noise issue, at least initially it seems like a good idea.
Though I wonder if the fact that it reflects body heat will make me sweatier. Terrible idea. Very poor durability.
And as you suspected, it will trap all your perspiration due to it being non-breathable. I actually think MB1 was on to something, assuming some means on the sides he later mentioned event to allow compression, or the use of VB clothing or liner.
Because there will be little or no vapor or sweat coming from the body that needs to get to the exterior. As it will be stopped by the VB, or almost all of it.
I have been amazed at the wide conditions I have managed to use these in, especially since I lack pit zips and such for venting.
Just remove layers quickly! Or sometimes VB clothes. Though the SB is not a perfect VB since it might allow some moisture to drip down the side of the hammock, as it simply lays on top of the pad under the hammock, it has done a fine job of keeping the OCF pad and any added insulation bone dry from the inside.
Net result: dry and warm due to a VB outer and inner layer. Worst case scenario, on the coldest nights, has been a few drops of water at the low point of the space blanket, which might have been sweat.
But the insulation has been dry. Unless I have done away with the space blanket, which at least once resulted in the foot of the HH under pad and my bag being soaked with condensation.
Naturally enough, since the outer layer was a cold VB, and body vapor loves to condense against a cold, WP surface. But I can also see how that might be a big assumption.
There was also mention by Kate of sewing 2 space blankets together to make a sleeping bag VB liner. Andrew felt it would not be a good idea due to lack of durability and because it would cause sweat and trap all moisture due to not being breathable.
OK, I see that it would be fragile. But I thought the entire idea was to be non-breathable and trap any moisture that might occur vapor or liquid sweat in order to keep it out of the insulation?
I think as far as a VB function, it would work just fine. They last for years in my HHSS, but probably would not last long as a bag liner, as pointed out.
Thanks for reading! My experiences camping, Dec. And my sleeping bag stayed dry and light. Nice write up. I go out in nice, cold weather, down to twenty belowish F, for fatbike rides.
As long as I reach my destination or the end of my workout without incident, all is well, but I worry about crashing or having mechanical difficulties.
Your situation reminds me of my winter runs, where my output level is beyond the threshold for not sweating.
My solution is to carry multiple sets of clothing e. I was curious to hear your thoughts about VBL suit that the racing industry uses.
Andrew, thanks for the in-depth explanation of the VBL technique. I winter camp in northern Minnesota, so the temps definitely warrant a lot of thought on gear, clothing, and techniques of keeping warm.
Do you get so wet that your next-to-skin layers have to be changed each morning and dried out? Do you just wake up and jump into another change of base layers?
Do you get wet enough that you have to dry off with something? Or do you kind of just stay in a perpetual state of moisture? Thanks for all the great info and responses!
I prefer VBL clothing so that I can sleep with all of my clothes on and not have to change in the morning.
I saw some people are doing a work-out in a gym wearing a weight loss suit. Is it a good VBL suit for a wilderness?
A very intersting article. In some ways what is old is new again. The beauty of the Synergy Works system is that everything was integrated together.
The pit zips on the shell matched up with the pit zips on the pile jacket which matched up with the pit zips on the vapor barrier shirt. In many ways this was ahead of its time.
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